tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post3579213435202715326..comments2024-03-26T01:17:49.256+00:00Comments on Roles, Rules, and Rolls: When and Why Are You Yourself?Roger G-Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-63420477454832923512011-05-07T23:31:30.069+01:002011-05-07T23:31:30.069+01:00Interesting discussion, thanks for your perspectiv...Interesting discussion, thanks for your perspectives. I probably should have clarified that my remarks apply mostly to the style of game I play - the adventure-based RPG. Certainly it's possible to have a game where the main point is to take on a role and keep in character.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-43390072106706127372011-05-07T20:17:48.067+01:002011-05-07T20:17:48.067+01:00@Timeshadows: I think you and I probably have more...@Timeshadows: I think you and I probably have more similar ideas about gaming than is apparent.<br /><br />I myself think it's interesting to try to take on a persona during roleplaying. I just want to make the points that:<br /><br />1) even playing ourselves in these fantastic situations can be challenging and lead to interesting decisions, and <br /><br />2) what often passes for "roleplaying" in our hobby is actually very simplistic, even clichéd and can be justification for making decisions that makes the game less fun for everyone else involved.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-42896982848013466232011-05-06T19:03:06.287+01:002011-05-06T19:03:06.287+01:00@ Telecanter: "Yes, I realize we are squatter...@ Telecanter: "Yes, I realize we are squatters playing monopoly, but if someone picks up the game board and throws it every few minutes because it would be funny/ironic/in character it gets lame quickly."<br /><br />Again, a loaded proposition that doesn't actually map onto the activity being discussed.<br />--Here's my ironic reply: Gamists start describing real-world phenomena outside of the game to trans-nerdy degrees and seem to be obsessed with min-maxing their twinky characters.<br /><br />That's equally likely and valid as the position framed in the quote, correct?Timeshadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09952601433965644275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-39325509763719918502011-05-06T16:11:34.977+01:002011-05-06T16:11:34.977+01:00going off what you wrote in your examples, it just...going off what you wrote in your examples, it just seems like i'd say:<br /><br />accessing your own ideas and memories about yourself when talking to NPCs suggests (but does not demand) to everyone at the table your "heads not in the game", however accessing your own strong emotions about what's going ON in the game suggests your head IS in the game.<br /><br />Whatever part of the brain is involved, i think it's pretty easy to see that any sign that a person: <br />1-is trying to play "right" by local terms (or at least the same way everybody else at the table is), and<br />2-is moved or affected by the action therein<br /><br />are signs that make everybody feel like they are not wasting their time and the thing they;re doing is entertaining everybody involved. Which is a dynamic familiar in a lot of social situations where people like each other and are trying to have fun.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-3344977792526895222011-05-06T16:10:57.035+01:002011-05-06T16:10:57.035+01:00Another thought on the player roleplaying incompet...Another thought on the player roleplaying incompetence-- they never learn. In fact, as the <i>player</i> learns what would be most wise to do in every situation, their character climbs toward peak incompetence because their conception of roleplaying is doing the opposite of what would be smart.<br /><br />Most of those roleplaying situations are entertaining only to the player, because like a thief stealing from the party, they only consider consequences for that character, in other words they are selfish.<br /><br />Yes, I realize we are squatters playing monopoly, but if someone picks up the game board and throws it every few minutes because it would be funny/ironic/in character it gets lame quickly.<br /><br />The sophisticated situations you mention Timeshadows come about when players play <i>themselves</i>. "Should I run now and save myself while abandoning everyone" comes about naturally when you are trying to survive, you don't have to take on a persona to achieve those moments.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-58419267617768611362011-05-06T12:09:14.018+01:002011-05-06T12:09:14.018+01:00It is interesting to consider those distinctions, ...It is interesting to consider those distinctions, but I think I'm with Timeshadows here. The examples seem to be too selective.<br /><br />I could for example imagine that my players would have less against a someone who is consciously playing a coward, than someone who instinctively refuses to do dangerous things in-game.The Rubberduckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585052552943070379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-91375001888308154022011-05-06T08:55:21.838+01:002011-05-06T08:55:21.838+01:00I wonder whether mechanical complexity plays a par...I wonder whether mechanical complexity plays a part in the whole business as well. If combat rules are complex, clear declarations of intent help to administrate those rules effectively.<br /><br />The D&D group I've just joined has that gear-change whenever battle is joined precisely because the interplay of skills, bonuses and circumstances needs a step back to clarify and sort out. <br /><br />In the past I confess I'd have viewed that as a Bad Thing, and I still think that there's a limit to how much mechanical interaction can be set up by inter-player discussion before the question of just how we're planning all this rears its head. These days, though, it's starting to grow on me, as the play with mechanics of a more complex system begins to display its own rewards.<br /><br /><br />@Timeshadows - that distinction between roleplaying and role-assumption is a good one which I will probably attempt to make use of in future. Much obliged.Vonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12583821960347555993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-5856967542599679352011-05-06T00:03:05.166+01:002011-05-06T00:03:05.166+01:00If one only uses the PC who is an incompetent fool...If one only uses the PC who is an incompetent fool as an example, it biases the argument in favour of the apparently pre-determined conclusion on the matter.<br />--What if the role-playing is that of a hard-driven adventurer torn between party safety and going after more treasure? Isn't that the part that seems to be encouraged as 'the game' part of RPGs?<br /><br />Moreover, the analysis is really only describing a style of play. For example, folks playing Amber Diceless or any number of other rpgs are perfectly capable and glad to ignore the mechanisms of the game (such as they exist), and portray their characters. The assessment that since the immersion isn't completely divorced from the Player it isn't: A). as useful, or, B). as desirable as Players moving their Dwarf Fighter Pawn towards the cool stuff -- seems to be the very antithesis of Roleplaying, although it does seem very gamy.<br /><br />This shibboleth of role-play ("I'm the dwarf fighter") versus what is termed role-assumption ("Like generations before me, I am a troll-slyer because honour demands that I perform my familial duty, as in the days of Klangeth Klungdorr of Burren Boch...") is one of those things that just makes me wonder where those who parse the RPG that way get it from. Certainly not one iota of text as written in any edition of the D&Ds I've ever read. It seems a clear cultural imperative for its practitioners, but I still can't determine the impetus for it, nor its appeal or value.Timeshadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09952601433965644275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-36998422080112031872011-05-05T22:40:44.383+01:002011-05-05T22:40:44.383+01:00"Also, it's not satisfying to the players...<i>"Also, it's not satisfying to the players if you force them to act 100% in-character at those times. They would feel like the play-acting was getting in the way of what really engages them."</i><br /><br />Yes. I think this is counter-intuitive to some folks. If nothing else, you are asking them to disengage for a moment before reengaging in a more abstract way. But I'm happy when they say <i>"Oh, shit!"</i>, that's when I know I got them and we're rollin'.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4829093857574761981.post-44267606986609827652011-05-05T21:37:57.847+01:002011-05-05T21:37:57.847+01:00Thoughtful post ... interesting!Thoughtful post ... interesting!Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.com